Can society survive without religious structure?
What do you say?
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"Once you accept all your responsibilities in its totality,
you become mature.
You stop throwing tantrums and
you stop seeking messiahs.
Then there is no need for any Jesus to save you.
Nor can any Jesus save you -
he was exploiting your situation." --- Osho
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A more reasonable question would be, can society survive with religious structure..
Religion has been fighting most any progress, including medicine.
Religion should and will always be a part of our landscape and should always have its influence..
But as being a part of our societal "structure" as in having power and control..it should clearly never, ever be that..
Power and control is its corruption.
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The mind seeks and the spirit yearns.
But the heart knows what the heart knows.
Religion should and will always be a part of our landscape and should always have its influence..
Admittedly off-topic, but I have to ask. Why is that?
__________________________
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
There's no religious structure in western societies. There are religious institutions that aspire to be societies within societies - not unlike the mafia - but that's different. The answer's yes. Religion is no longer a cohesive prerequisite for the well-being of society.
I think shaka said it very well. Thank you!
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♥´¯`♥Blah♥´¯`♥
cain and abel made religious offers to god ,well if religion has been around since then?is it illogical to think that it will continue in its many many forms?
cain and abel made religious offers to god ,well if religion has been around since then?is it illogical to think that it will continue in its many many forms?
Ignoring for a moment the fact that you probably think of Cain and Abel as historical characters, societies change and evolve. Many things common for centuries in the past have been purged from many modern cultures. You may not like it, but what is really illogical is ruling out the possibility that religion might eventually die out as a human practise.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
cain and abel made religious offers to god ,well if religion has been around since then?is it illogical to think that it will continue in its many many forms?
Ignoring for a moment the fact that you probably think of Cain and Abel as historical characters, societies change and evolve. Many things common for centuries in the past have been purged from many modern cultures. You may not like it, but what is really illogical is ruling out the possibility that religion might eventually die out as a human practise.
Kinda', Sorta' like Sodom & Gomorrah? "Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24. "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly" II Peter 2:6. Hard Evidence @ http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
or clickHERE
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The societies of the Western world mostly pride themselves on having put religion in its place. Its dangers are to us a thing of the past: book burnings, people burnings, religious wars, obstruction of free thought and enquiry. But in the modern era we have also found ourselves pondering the loss of identity, inspiration, basis for morality, and motivation, that religion provided and that we are having to do without. Artists and psychologists have pointed out even more than this: that religion made possible the relationship between the conscious and unconscious minds without which both individuals and societies lack integration and health. One could ask oneself: does Hindu or Muslim society look more "integral" or "healthy"? Perhaps not, but they do in one sense look stronger - they believe in themselves. The Western world, for all its power and advancement, can look weak and out of focus by comparison. That spiritual dryness leads to a fall has been the theme of much modern literature, from The Idylls of the King to The Waste Land.
Kinda', Sorta' like Sodom & Gomorrah? "Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24. "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly" II Peter 2:6. Hard Evidence @ http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
or clickHERE
or clickHERE
And you bring as evidence to support your claims a "documentary" made by an organisation named Ark Discovery that intends to "reveal god's treasure" and expect everyone else to just buy it? I want names of the archaeologists and geologists who supposedly did the excavations, I want credentials. Please. Enough poor excuses for arguments taken from holy books, ok?
The societies of the Western world mostly pride themselves on having put religion in its place.
I wouldn't say so. Those who managed to put religion in its place simply take such reality for granted, the lucky bastards.
Its dangers are to us a thing of the past: book burnings, people burnings, religious wars, obstruction of free thought and enquiry.
Some countries in the western world still suffer from all the above. Sadly so. But hopefully things will change.
But in the modern era we have also found ourselves pondering the loss of identity, inspiration, basis for morality, and motivation, that religion provided and that we are having to do without.
Religion as source of morality? History says otherwise. And I feel no loss whatsoever, nor do countless other people who have rejected religion and metaphysics.
Artists and psychologists have pointed out even more than this: that religion made possible the relationship between the conscious and unconscious minds without which both individuals and societies lack integration and health.
Reference?
One could ask oneself: does Hindu or Muslim society look more "integral" or "healthy"? Perhaps not, but they do in one sense look stronger - they believe in themselves. The Western world, for all its power and advancement, can look weak and out of focus by comparison.
Weak? Out of focus?! Do you have anything to support this silly claim?
That spiritual dryness leads to a fall has been the theme of much modern literature, from The Idylls of the King to The Waste Land.
Literary works are the works of single individuals whose perceptions, however interesting, are not necessarily shared by the society as a whole. Besides, there is no small amount of modern literary and popular works written by authors who embrace a reality rid of its religious and spiritual burden and find great strength in it. And there are people who agree.
To sum up, what you wrote is entirely your own, subjective vision of the issue.
__________________________
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
And you bring as evidence to support your claims a "documentary" made by an organisation named Ark Discovery that intends to "reveal god's treasure" and
expect everyone else to just buy it? I want names of the archaeologists and geologists who supposedly did the excavations, I want credentials. Please. Enough poor excuses
for arguments taken from holy books,
His name is Ron Wyatt, He threw away his normal life to discover what he did for mankind. And He and his colleagues foundexpect everyone else to just buy it? I want names of the archaeologists and geologists who supposedly did the excavations, I want credentials. Please. Enough poor excuses
for arguments taken from holy books,
plenty, just keep clicking. His work isn't in vain.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/ron_wyatt.htm
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If society is functioning so well without religious structure???Why are millions still going to church??
His name is Ron Wyatt, He threw away his normal life to discover what he did for mankind. And He and his colleagues found
plenty, just keep clicking. His work isn't in vain.
plenty, just keep clicking. His work isn't in vain.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/ron_wyatt.htm
"Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933 - August 4, 1999) was an amateur archaeologist (he had no training in the discipline and held no professional position) and author who claimed to have discovered many significant biblical sites and artifacts. His claims are dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars and most Christian leaders even in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but he continues to be quoted (especially on the Internet).[1]
Wyatt was a nurse-anesthetist when in 1960 he saw a picture in Life magazine of a boat-like shape on a mountain near Mount Ararat. The resulting wide-spread speculation in evangelical Christian circles that this might be Noah's Ark started Wyatt on his career as an amateur archaeologist. From 1977 until his death in 1999 he made over one hundred trips to the Middle East, his interests widening to take in a wide variety of references from the Old and New Testaments."
Seriously, do you feel no shame at all?
__________________________
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
If society is functioning so well without religious structure???Why are millions still going to church??
Refer to my first post, please.
__________________________
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
Religion should and will always be a part of our landscape and should always have its influence..
Admittedly off-topic, but I have to ask. Why is that?
Why?
Well, outside of the fact that it has always been around (if it didn't exist someone would invent it)...is this other thing...
take away all it's political component..because that's not what I'm addressing..that part should go by the wayside. That's the part that enables the fanatics.
And fanatics can and will use anything to justify their actions ..and they do. Taking away religion won't maim them.
But I have clearly seen that for many people that it can bring things like comfort, inspiration and yes, even encourage people to want to be a better person. To do good deeds.
Yes..I know it may not be necessary for many people..but the fact is..for many others it is.
There are some positive aspects of it that never get acknowledged here. And the silent majority that follow their own faith quietly and respectfully of others also don't get acknowledged here.
Maybe you never hear them..maybe you don't see them. They might be a little too quiet for you. They aren't the ones telling you what you should think and believe..
I think many of those kinds of people actually make the world a better place. The quiet ones in the background.
Taking it all away suggests a sort of mind control no different than forcing it down everyones throat.
Many people will always need something more than Science and philosophy regardless of who approves or not.
Ask Pietro about that foxhole.
Keep in mind also..I am not religious.
I am also short on time this morning, but that's the best I can do off the cuff.
__________________________
The mind seeks and the spirit yearns.
But the heart knows what the heart knows.
Willie, why is Peitro in a foxhole? It is another religious war. Killing in the name of deity has killed more people than any other reason. People deciding what to do in life based on a book written by acolytes of a particular messiah would be better served if they read about philosophy and science.
Most religious books use fear and intimidation to achieve their goals. Live your life for a particular deity’s tenets and you will be rewarded with a great after life, if not you will forever in some less than enjoyable place. Religion and morality is an oxymoron. The bible and Koran both have misogynous, homophobic, murder, discrimination and indifference to other cultures and religions in them.
I do not see atheist flying planes into buildings, killing abortion doctors and denying science.
__________________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. Robert M. Pirsig Evolve!
shaka,i did refer to your post.
Israel is every bit as western in its outlook as Italy..we have state funded religion,we have state funded religious affairs authority..In israel the dept internal affairs has no authority as regards registry of births deaths and marriages,those are the responsibiliy of dept of religious affairs..get the picture?
one other thing,well! a few actually..
A: the two chief Rabbis are paid by the religious affairs ministry.
B: congrgational rabbi salary is determined by negotiation between hhe and the congregation employing him because thats what happens,ones rabbi is the successful candidate...
As for structure it exists in a big way,for example..
forbidden by law the import of non kosher meat..believe me shaka ,we have structure coming out of our EARS!!
You can't compare Israel with most European countries. It is more reasonable to compare Israel with most African countries. Can't survive without huge financial support from outside.
With religion, you're stuck in the West bank. You're Knesset can't make a decision to give it up, due to religious parties. Sooner or later, Israel have to give it up. Beitar Illit, full of otrhotox people, causing trouble for the nation, contribute financially next to nothing.
".In Israel the dept internal affairs has no authority as regards registry of births deaths and marriages,those are the responsibility of dept of religious affairs..get the picture?" In other words, Israel in this matter, is far from a modern state. This is a job for the government, not an public organization.
another problem in Israel, with something close to 25% non-jewish population. Why should they have to relate to an organization from another religion? Forbidden import of non-kosher meat? Then why was there sold pork meat in the middle of Tel Aviv, in Dizengoff? Was it perhaps illegal, then what about the structure coming out of your ears....?
Seriously, do you feel no shame at all?
I have the tapes of all his discoveries & seen them myself, like I said, His work is not in vain. I'll stand before my Father to be ashamed, never before an Atheist, Seriously.
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His name is Ron Wyatt, He threw away his normal life to discover what he did for mankind. And He and his colleagues found
plenty, just keep clicking. His work isn't in vain.
plenty, just keep clicking. His work isn't in vain.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/ron_wyatt.htm
"Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933 - August 4, 1999) was an amateur archaeologist (he had no training in the discipline and held no professional position) and author who claimed to have discovered many significant biblical sites and artifacts. His claims are dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars and most Christian leaders even in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but he continues to be quoted (especially on the Internet).[1]
Wyatt was a nurse-anesthetist when in 1960 he saw a picture in Life magazine of a boat-like shape on a mountain near Mount Ararat. The resulting wide-spread speculation in evangelical Christian circles that this might be Noah's Ark started Wyatt on his career as an amateur archaeologist. From 1977 until his death in 1999 he made over one hundred trips to the Middle East, his interests widening to take in a wide variety of references from the Old and New Testaments."
Seriously, do you feel no shame at all?
I can't decide if having a qualification in grave robbing is something to be proud of or not...
Maybe he had the right idea being an amateur
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Your english is pretty bad, learn some gramma - then get back.
The Turkish government has double-verified Mr. Wyatt's tests, and they have given him credit for the discovery.
The announcement appeared in Turkey's largest newspaper on June 21, 1987.
The area was first designated a National Park, and then it was upgraded to the status of a National Treasure.
The government has built a visitors' center overlooking the site and issued official tourist brochures so people of all races can come and see the ark!
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
Satan is strongly attacking this and other discoveries in order to deceive men of God's truth.
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Ron Wyatt had credibility problem with biblical scholars:
Further doubt as to Wyatt's credibility was supplied by Dr. Jim Fleming, founder and former director of the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies (located at Tantur) and an editorial advisor to Biblical Archaeology Review. He told me in the summer of 1993 that he had originally been asked by Wyatt to be his archaeological advisor during his excavations at Mount Calvary. Because Dr. Dan Bahat, a Jerusalem archaeologist and lecturer at Hebrew University, had agreed to sponsor the dig, Fleming tentatively agreed. After spending time with Wyatt at the site, however, Fleming became alarmed at both his claims and techniques. In one instance, Fleming saw Wyatt drop a hammer down into a large crack in the mountain. Later, Wyatt offered as proof that he had discovered the Ark a metal-detector reading that indicated a metal object within the rock. Fleming says he left after this incident. Others have given similar disturbing reports concerning Wyatt's conduct at the site. One such observer, the Reverend John Woods, noted, “I saw him explaining to a group that a piece of metal embedded in the face of the Garden Tomb was part of the seal Pilate had placed upon the tomb. In fact it was a piece of shrapnel from the war [in 1967]
If you visit the website you will discover many more questionable claims by Ron Wyatt from biblical scholars.
Website: http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/wyatt.html
__________________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. Robert M. Pirsig Evolve!
@VBC, if that's an attempt to discredit my information, I certainly like your choice of websites! 
TCCSA's STATEMENT OF BELIEF
We believe in God: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and that all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in the original autographs; this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of actual historical truths.
We believe that the origin of matter and all basic types of living things, including man, came about through direct creative acts of God during the six-day creation week described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since the creation week have accomplished only changes within the created kinds.
We believe that the great flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Flood, was an historic event, world-wide in extent and effect.
We accept the account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as the first man and woman. Their subsequent fall into sin, by disobedience of God's direct command, is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind.
Therefore, we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and only Savior and that personal faith in Him is necessary for salvation.
http://www.tccsa.tc/believe.html
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Here's one for ol' shaka!
http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/scientific_evidence_gish.html
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@Gary
It is not me that discredited your information from Ron Wyatt it was Dr. Jim Fleming, founder and former director of the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, Dr. Dan Bahat, a Jerusalem archaeologist and the Reverend John Woods. Bill Crouse, founder of Christian Information Ministries International, found it equally interesting “Would you…not question someone who not only claims to have found Noah's Ark, but also every archaeological site of interest to Christians?”
It is funny he found every archaeological site of interest to Christians, yet they are still looking for them that so many biblical scholars have not believed him and you do. Well-known creationist geophysicist Dr John Baumgardner, a scientist at Los Alamos Laboratories researched the Ark site with Wyatt and concluded it was “Bogus”
• Radar shows man-made (boat) structure..........FALSE
• There is a regular metallic pattern............FALSE
• Lab tests show petrified laminated wood........FALSE
• Turkish scientists found metal rods............FALSE
• Metal artefacts have been proved by lab........FALSE
• There are ‘ship’s ribs’ showing................FALSE
• There is lots of petrified wood................FALSE
• Turkish Commission says ‘it’s a boat...........FALSE
Sites: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i2/ark.asp
http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i4/report.asp
__________________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. Robert M. Pirsig Evolve!
Seriously, you should feel a bit of shame, Gary. But still, let's get back on topic. We feel no need to keep going at ya, but we will if you force us to.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen
There has been rumours that before his death “Old Ron the con” had found the pickled foreskin of the messiah and Mohammed’s Dictaphone.
__________________________
"Save a child use a condom"
Willie, why is Peitro in a foxhole? It is another religious war. Killing in the name of deity has killed more people than any other reason. People deciding what to do in life based on a book written by acolytes of a particular messiah would be better served if they read about philosophy and science.
Most religious books use fear and intimidation to achieve their goals. Live your life for a particular deity’s tenets and you will be rewarded with a great after life, if not you will forever in some less than enjoyable place. Religion and morality is an oxymoron. The bible and Koran both have misogynous, homophobic, murder, discrimination and indifference to other cultures and religions in them.
I do not see atheist flying planes into buildings, killing abortion doctors and denying science.
Take Pietro out of the foxhole then..put him in the darkest night of his life..that wasn't even the point.
If you'll step out of your comfort zone a bit you might find that my defending the ability for the non radicals to freely pursue their interests is not really so different then your defending the homosexual..or the transvestite.
There is always a dangerous tyranny in painting anything with a broad stroke and thinking that you grasp every element of what it is all about. Particularly when you don't want to.
Does it only matter if it's under the safety of your umbrella.?
Don't be silly that war is only fought over religion. What about power and control..and posturing. Ever notice on here how so many will despise an entire group and hold grudges over their countries history. As if anyone can control that.
I don't dispute that religion has caused it's share of wars and grief in its most twisted form. I said the same thing myself for many years. But that's only part of the story. I seriously doubt that human nature wouldn't just find another culprit if religion didn't exist. They always do.
Because its really about control.
Intolerance comes in many shapes and sizes. Too bad that some people think it only counts if its something that they care about.
If you want to change the more radical, poisonous branch of the religious...the surest way is through the more reasonable.
Even if you can never acknowledge that they have any intricate value .
__________________________
The mind seeks and the spirit yearns.
But the heart knows what the heart knows.
If you'll step out of your comfort zone a bit you might find that my defending the ability for the non radicals to freely pursue their interests is not really so different then your defending the homosexual..or the transvestite.
I truly believe in freedom of speech and religion and have stated so in several posts. I came to Leaa’s defence once on R&B when someone attacked her for her belief in God.
There is always a dangerous tyranny in painting anything with a broad stroke and thinking that you grasp every element of what it is all about. Particularly when you don't want to.
Does it only matter if it's under the safety of your umbrella.?
You are discussing me here and I am not the subject and you could not be further from the truth either. I think there is greater tyranny about using ad hominem diatribe based on a post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy for your conclusions.
Don't be silly that war is only fought over religion. What about power and control..and posturing. Ever notice on here how so many will despise an entire group and hold grudges over their countries history. As if anyone can control that.
Maybe you need to read a little better. I never said war is only fought over religion. Most are still based on religion again
I don't dispute that religion has caused it's share of wars and grief in its most twisted form. I said the same thing myself for many years. But that's only part of the story. I seriously doubt that human nature wouldn't just find another culprit if religion didn't exist. They always do.
That is a conjecture.
Because its really about control.
Not always and you are speaking in absolutes now.
Intolerance comes in many shapes and sizes. Too bad that some people think it only counts if its something that they care about.
Wrong again, I believe in freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
If you want to change the more radical, poisonous branch of the religious...the surest way is through the more reasonable.
I am addressing the topic, can society survive without religious structure, and you’re not.
Even if you can never acknowledge that they have any intricate value .
I will acknowledge their value when I can find them and you have not defined one.
Religion should and will always be a part of our landscape and should always have its influence.
Religion should not have an influence based my points and I addressed the topic not you. I would expect the same courtesy. The ad hominem is the last resort of the incompetent.
__________________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. Robert M. Pirsig Evolve!
There's no religious structure in western societies. There are religious institutions that aspire to be societies within societies - not unlike the mafia - but that's different. The answer's yes. Religion is no longer a cohesive prerequisite for the well-being of society.
__________________________
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen